Home Recording Thread

[thelivingvines]

Post any ideas, problems, tips, or anything related in a bid to improve the world of the home demo.
I struggle with micing up my amp to get a decent sound. I use a shure SM57 and a fender deville- What I usually do it line it up right in the middle of the speaker about an inch away. then turn the mic to about a 45 degree angle and move it slightly to the left or the right... its kindof a guessing game, the sounds i get are alright, nothing spectacular though. Feel I could be doing better. Anyone got any ideas?

[Julian]

You're putting the mic's one inch away from the speaker? When I recorded stuff for my school I was told to put them like one and a half steps back. But I dunno, i'm no recording expert.

[Sammas]

It depends on the mic and the room. The closer the microphone is, the less room sound it picks up. Its pretty standard to have a 57 that close to the cone. When you have a directional mic that close to a sound source you need to take extra care with the proximity effect.

There are a few reason why people can't get great recorded guitar tones. One is mic positioning, you really should do it with a set of headphones and something playing through the amp. Its tedious trying to do it otherwise. I reamp pink noise through the amp and position the mic so that it picks up an even range of frequencies, this also has added advantages when adding multiple mics. The other is the tendency for people to set the tone controls of the amp while listening to the sound in the room... if the mic is 2inches away from the speaker, its the sound 2inches away from the speaker that the mic is picking up... you gotta get down on your knees in front of the amp and set the tone controls while listening closely.

practise and patiences is key.

[Daniel]

Sammas write a book about everything you know or at least a word doc
people like me will pay alot of money for something like that especially if its big and fat :)

[WHITE FALCON]

that would be fairly hard. im sure he knows so much shit its not funny.

[Daniel]

yeah i know but think of how money he could make
im sure lots of people like me are dying to know the ins and outs of everything like sammaas

[WHITE FALCON]

im sure lots of people know this stuff aswell. just they arent on the boards.

[thelivingvines]

reamp pink noise? those are all words i understand... but not that make sense as a whole, what do you mean?

[Kevin]

Sammas has a fan club now :D

i connected my mic up last night and gave it a bit of distance from my guitar, it definetely sounds better then having it close to the sound hole.

[Sammas]

reamp pink noise? those are all words i understand... but not that make sense as a whole, what do you mean?


Reamping is a method of running a recorded audio signal back through a guitar amplifier. Say you record a guitar track with just a DI box straight into your audio recorder, you can then run the audio track out of your recorder, through the reamp device and back into your guitar amp, then re-record it. That means once you record your perfect guitar track via DI, you can reproduce it time and time again to allow you to mess with the EQ on your guitar amp or adjust mic positions, etc. You can even run exactly the same guitar track through a variety of guitar amps and re-record them. To do this you need to match the signal levels with devices like a "reamp" or Radial ProRMP. Don't try running an audio signal out of an audio recorder straight into your guitar amp, things will turn pearshaped pretty quickly.

Pink noise is similar to white noise. White noise is sound with equal amounts of every frequency. People often call it "static". The human ear doesn't hear every frequency evenly, it has an attenuated frequency response. That means that we hear some frequencies easier than we hear other frequencies, thats why when we hear white noise it sounds relatively high in pitch but really its just because the human ear cannot pick up the lower frequencies as easy as the higher frequencies. Pink noise is white noise that compensates for the attenuated frequency response of human hearing. So when we hear pink noise, we hear even amounts of every frequency but the sound itself doesn't have even amounts of every frequency like white noise does.

When I position mics I run pink noise out of my audio software through a reamp device then into my amplifier at low volumes. I'll grab a mic and stand and put on a set of headphones so I can hear what the microphone is picking up (ie. the pink noise coming through the amp), then I'll find a position for the mic where it mimics the even distribution of frequencies as much as possible - that means it will be in a spot where its not getting to much bass or too much treble, but a nice balance of both.

Its probably overkill for some people... if you have two people you can get one to play the guitar and the other to put headphones on and find a nice spot for the mic. Try and keep your amp out of a corner in the room, but also out of the direct middle as well. I don't know how well I explained it... rather dusty after last night.

[Daniel]

thats explianed pretty well me thinks

[thelivingvines]

awesome... I think I get it. Certainly given me some ideas anyway! thank you!

[thelivingvines]

ok, so another production question: I already asked this somewhere but didn't get an answer so I thought I should put it here. Does anyone know anything about vocal production? How can I get a really good falsetto sound- my falsetto itself is alright but there must be some way I can change the eq or something to improve it- the sort of sound I am after is a Brian Wilson falsetto. For those of you who know the vines, Craig has an incredible voice (when he's not fucking about)- theres a moment in their song 'take me back' towards the end where there is the most awesome rising falsetto ever and I want to try and recreate that sound- any ideas?

[lachlandavis]

First of all, Ive only just joined this thread and id liek to say, With the right mastering and production, you can make a Beautiful record from your own home for the cost of your computer and gear.

Now for Vines, As far as good vocal production, and your beautiful forsetto, first tip, Make sure there is a thin layer of foam or padding on the microphone if you want that really smooth sound similar to how you hear yourself normaly.
As far as EQing your voice, Its simple really, Most Vocals lie around Mod Range, so Its usualy a good idea not to mess with the Mids to much, You really Just have to listen, If your voice is harsh, drop the Top end off, if its Bassy drop the lows.

for a forsetto, you might just want To add alittle bass and mids and drop a little of the Top, id really have to hear you to tell you, im used to mixing live.

[thelivingvines]

awesome thanks- that's really helpful- would never have thought of the foam- would that apply to condenser mics? cos that's what i'll be using. if it would sound better with a dynamic like an sm57 or something let me know. Also... this padding you speak of... how thick? sponge thick? all the way around the mic?
I'm so excited! thank you so much.
not a chance i would send raw footage-my dignity couldn't take it!
the falsettos i have done i have kept low and subtle in the mix so probably not much you could get from those.

[lachlandavis]

As for the Foam, you can buy Mic foam covers, but you probably dont want to ;)
As for thickness for foam you already have, It depends, You dont want to use a really thick layer Like your typical bench wiping sponge, It will cut too much vocals, and you will have to bring yourself up in the mix and will probably sound a bit funny or overdriven.

You want to use a, Im not sure how to explain it, Thin Gauze? Foam, basicaly NOT a really Dense foam, and anywhere from the thickness of a couple of cleanex wipes to the thickness of your little finger, so like 1 or a bit more centemeters should provie adequate padding.

As for placement, when using thinner stuff the way ive seen it done is the Mic is on a stand and the Foam is wrapped around this wire cirlce thats on another stand so the foam is in front of the mic

But if you buy Mics with foam on them, you will notice they foam is wrapped around the head, so experiment.

Ive heard good Stories about the Sm57, i think our church might even use them. But a condeser mic, padded properly, should do the trick fine.

[Loo C]

As for placement, when using thinner stuff the way ive seen it done is the Mic is on a stand and the Foam is wrapped around this wire cirlce thats on another stand so the foam is in front of the mic
That's called a pop filter. It's designed to soften some of the harsh consonants (eg t's and p's) when you're singing so they don't make that annoying "popping" sound into your mic. As Lachlan said they consist of thin foam - I think it's nylon actually - mounted on a frame that you place between you and the mic. Looks like this:

http://www.barryrudolph.com/mix/graphics/midatlanticsplitscreen.gif


"Real" pop filters aren't cheap (I think they retail for around $50) but you can make one by stretching the material from a pair of tights or stockings around a bent coat hanger.



As for the foam around the mic itself, it's called a windscreen and can do a similar job, reducing the effect of plosives (the harsh, popping consonants). It is a piece of light, low density foam, about a centimetre thick, that slips over the mic. It's main purpose is to filter out unwanted background noise, such as the static-y sound produced when air passes over the mic, so the vocals are nice and clear. This is usually only a problem if you're recording outside though - it's not an absolute necessity for indoor recording. Particularly not if you use a pop filter. You can pick them up fairly cheaply from music stores I think, and they look like this:

http://www.singtotheworld.com/userfiles/stock/hardware/A32WSpickupHR.jpg

[thelivingvines]

thanks- i already have a pop shield; I don't reckon that's what he meant though. Neither the pop shield or the windscreen will serve to do what I have in mind. It's given me ideas anyway. I can mess around with the eq and do what I like. I absolutely refuse to use auto tuners; I think it's cheating. I'd rather do take after take until I get it right. Anyway, won't get a chance until I'm home next weekend. But I'll be sure to send you the results.

[lachlandavis]

yesi meant the pop sheild, Im Just bad with technical names.
But the other thing Foam does is gives you a smoother tone on your voice, When you speak your voice is cuishioned by your body, skin and liquids, that why when you record yourself, your like "crap i sound heaps weird", I think you may need to by a special sort of foam not sure, but it trys to acheive that same effect through recording.

[too cool for hyphens ed]

Yeah, i'm interested in home recording.
I'm thinking of getting a mixer with mic preamps and a USB plug in. I'll get a few more mics and then shoudl eb ok to record live stuff reasonably well. I'm planning on spending roundabout $500 on the mixer, less if i can, then a few sm57s.

Any suggestions or advice?

Cheers guys

[thelivingvines]

depends how big you wanna go on stuff like that- are you after an all in one system or a hook-up-yo-computer jobbie. I'm an expert in the former... not so much in the latter.

[too cool for hyphens ed]

uh, i dunno. i'm planning on getting a macbook pro to use as well, because i want a laptop, and i figure if i've got that, then surely that can save me some cash as far as gettting new gear.

[thelivingvines]

well.. if you are getting a macbook pro then you are still spending a couple of grand no? not that we advocate illegal downloading here, but do you know how to use torrents? if so you can get Logic Express or ProLogic without having to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
Just trying to think what else you'll need on top of that: obviously a midi interface so you can hook stuff up to your slutty new 'puter. a mixer- no idea how much they cost. plus all the cables and mics and stuff on top of that.
I guess it probably works out to be about the same. If you are interested in all-in-ones though you should look into the Roland systems. I use them and they do an awesome job. Korg make a pretty decent one too and I heard the Yamaha ones are pretty special.

[MONDAY]

i just got a Zoom MRS-8, time to get to work reading the fat-ass manuel!

[thelivingvines]

yeah, it's like reading a phone book. If the zoom ones are anything like the roland ones its the worst read ever- they are a direct translation from the chinese so they make little to no sense at all. I got the DVD version of the instruction manual and that was a million times more helpful.

[Loo C]

i just got a Zoom MRS-8, time to get to work reading the fat-ass manuel!
Yeah I've got one of those, I'm no expert but it seems pretty good, exactly what I need anyway. The manual takes a bit of getting through, but at least it's easy to follow and it makes sense! No Engrish. :)

[MONDAY]

anyone have any tips for using it?
:)

[thelivingvines]

anyone have any tips for using it?
:)

push buttons and move knobs to your hearts content.

[too cool for hyphens ed]

I just had a look at the mrs-8, it looks really good for the price point. what are you using yours for , MONDAY? I'd be using one for recording music by myself (me playing all the instruments), as well as recording my band, for demos etc. what do you reckon?

[MONDAY]

Yeah ive just been recording stuff on my own and should be doing some recording with my band soon enough. It has some pretty awesome effects chucked in there to, i got it 2nd hand off ebay for about $375 so keep your eyes out on ebay because its deffinatly worth it!:D

[Grumma]

Hmmmk little help fella's ;)

How good quality mic would I want to record just vocals?

[Julian]

A good one?

[Grumma]

Thanks for that Julz :) /sarcasm

Nah I just need one where the word are recognisable; its mainly so I can send my friend some vocals so he knows what to do with the guitar

[Julian]

One that sounds like that

[Disease]

You can record vocals with any mic really..

[thelivingvines]

well... i'm sure you could pick up a shure sm58 on ebay for not very much if you wanted to. Otherwise Audio technica have a pretty budget solution that doesn't look toooo bad.

[Grumma]

You can record vocals with any mic really..

Alrighty. So just a cheapish one from JB or something like that?

[Disease]

Well yeah. I mean, you can always go more expensive for clearer sound and finetuning, but almost everything is in your voice, not the mic. ;)

You can use a coathanger and stocking if you want between you and the mic too.

[Grumma]

Yeah well all I want this one for is to give my friend an idea of the vocal melody.

He's got a better mic that we can use once he's come up with the guitar and keyboard parts

[Disease]

Well yeah. Hell you could even use one of those computer gaming mics.

[Grumma]

Haha I was gonna do that but my brother broke our old one :p

[thelivingvines]

ok, i'm having a little trouble getting things right in el studio at the moment. Today marks the first time I have had the chance to record with my White Falcon, I have the most awesome tone coming out of the amp which is perfect for this tune I am working on- anyway, I did a couple of takes and fiddled with the mic positioning a bit- I have an SM57 right in front of the amp, a little to the left of centre set off at a 45 degree angle, and a condenser set out in the room to catch some of the ambience- works really well with my solid bodies. Aaanyway, the sound I am getting out of the recording sounds like the guitars are being recorded like the mics are set up really far away... i can't for the life of me figure out why, I can't capture the tone at all. Anyone got any ideas why? I have turned down all of the reverb... it still doesn't sound right. cheers m'dears.

[thelivingvines]

someone? please!!

[too cool for hyphens ed]

ok, i'm having a little trouble getting things right in el studio at the moment. Today marks the first time I have had the chance to record with my White Falcon, I have the most awesome tone coming out of the amp which is perfect for this tune I am working on- anyway, I did a couple of takes and fiddled with the mic positioning a bit- I have an SM57 right in front of the amp, a little to the left of centre set off at a 45 degree angle, and a condenser set out in the room to catch some of the ambience- works really well with my solid bodies. Aaanyway, the sound I am getting out of the recording sounds like the guitars are being recorded like the mics are set up really far away... i can't for the life of me figure out why, I can't capture the tone at all. Anyone got any ideas why? I have turned down all of the reverb... it still doesn't sound right. cheers m'dears.

You are online at odd times, unless you live overseas. I can't remember if you do or not. I think you do.

I don't think i can be very helpful, but i would check to see if the mic sounds ok with your other guitars, and your old setup - to make sure that the mic is not the problem.

If that is not the case, just playaround with mic positioning, or consider recording directly via a line in.

I don't knwo what it coudl be really, because i thought that the mic will just pick up any noise coming from your amp. IT shouldn't make one guitar sound like it is "far-off", and another one soudn good...

[Incognito]

Two sound sources create potential for phase issues. Most like what you are hearing is comb filtering. Try panning one mic hard left and the other hard right and see if you can here a chorusing effect. Try following the 3 to 1 rule, its a general rule when placing multiple mics on a single source. Place the second (distant) mic three times further away than what the first mic is to the sound source. So say the SM57 is 10 inches away from the speaker, place the second mic 30 inches away from the SM57.

If ambience is what you are after, try placing the condenser mic on the speaker (say 10inches back positioned for the best sound), set it to omni if possible. Then place the SM57 20 inches back from the speaker. This is called the 2 to 1 rule of ambience.

The best microphone positions change with the type of guitar you are using. Also don't use a second mic just for the sake of using a second mic, just aim for the best sound.

[too cool for hyphens ed]

Question:

Does anyone here have any experience in using USB audio recording interfaces?

I was at a friends hosue today using an edirol UA-25, and it seemed pretty good. My only concern with usb interfaces is the lack of ability to record anymore than 2 tracks at a time.

Any recommendations/warnings/advice?

Thanks

[Kevin]

i've been thinking about getting one of these http://line6.com/toneport/ for a while now to just have an all in one box for recording to my pc, instead of the current mixer into the line in, which isn't the greatest quality setup.

there's also things like this http://www.jrrshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=77_158_63&products_id=6411 , well that whole site is full of cool stuff

[Disease]

Question:

Does anyone here have any experience in using USB audio recording interfaces?

I was at a friends hosue today using an edirol UA-25, and it seemed pretty good. My only concern with usb interfaces is the lack of ability to record anymore than 2 tracks at a time.

Any recommendations/warnings/advice?

Thanks
I use a USB recording device, it's a Tascam US-122. Personally I find it extremely good. The only downside is, as you mentioned, the lack of ability to record more than 2 tracks. HOWEVER, in this last week I've been doing some recording with my band using my Tascam. We used a mixer and just sent the left/right outputs of the mixer into the inputs on the Tascam. What it did mean was that before each song we had to record a few soundchecks to get the sound that we wanted, as we were recording as a live band.

Some people might see that as very annoying, but as far as we were concerned it actually worked really well. We got a decent sound, and after we recorded it we didn't spend ages stuffing around with levels and things because we didn't have that available to us. It was sort of liberating actually.


Now, what I actually came in here to post was the recordings that I've just been talking about. We've posted 3 of the songs on our myspace page - http://www.myspace.com/littlestreetband

Let me know what you think. :)